Marriage for everyone
With November 4th around the corner, we’ve been bombarded with an overwhelming number of campaign ads. While they are annoying, I feel the need to follow in their footsteps and speak up so that you can make a more educated decision when you head to the polls.
I am gay and have been with my wife for 8 years. We made personal life commitments to each other in 2007 and then committed to each other legally in 2008 after same-sex marriage was granted by the California Supreme Court.
I think it’s overly dramatic to claim that Proposition 8, which denies same-sex marriage in California, promotes or supports hate towards homosexuals. I really believe that most who are against same-sex marriage simply don’t understand it.
The supporters of Prop 8 use the saying that they’re trying to “Protect Marriage.” It’s not about taking rights away, they affirm, but protecting their own rights. I promise you, we don’t want to take anything away from straight couples who have found love.
My devotion to my wife doesn’t take anything away from the commitment you’ve made to your significant other. It would not weaken or cheapen what you have. Instead, denying same-sex marriage or allocating us a “civil union” cheapens our commitment.
If your beliefs on homosexuality are shaped by the Bible, it should still not influence your vote. I could make arguments about the Bible and how it’s been edited or other “rules” it includes that people are not passionate about. But bottom line, the freedom of religion allows you to believe in the Bible. If you choose to do so, I respect that.
But for America to be what it is, and for YOU to continue to have the freedom to worship who you choose and to believe the written words of the Bible, there has to be liberty. There has to be the allowance of people to be who they are and then expectations to respect each other and their differences. The separation of church and state requires that religious beliefs not be the basis for decisions when it comes to how I live my life as an American. Denying me the ability to marry whom I choose is a violation of my civil rights and it legalizes discrimination.
While it is about legal rights, tax filing, and medical decisions, it’s really about love. Marriage is the ultimate expression of a person’s love for another. Some may use the argument that the institution of marriage has been cheapened by the divorce rate and the “Marry a Millionaire” shows, but I respect and believe in it. I honor the commitment that I made to my wife.
This past week in the San Francisco Chronicle, a 29 year old woman by the name of Myrna Elias was quoted as saying, “A lot of friends had a hard time coming out to their parents and others, and I’m sympathetic to what they went through. But I can still love those persons and still be for Prop 8.”
If you vote yes on Prop 8, you are supporting an idea that ignores my core identity and declaring that my commitment to my wife is deficient. You may not be promoting hate, but I cannot see how you can claim to love me.
As someone who is important in my life, I ask you to please respect me as your friend or family member and my liberties as an American and vote NO on Proposition 8. Your decision is going to directly affect somebody you know. I appreciate you taking the time to read this and hope that you are doing well. If you’re interested in discussing the topic further, please feel free to contact me and I would love to do so.
Nicely stated.
The whole “protecting marriage” argument eludes me as well. One could say that straight people have made a fine mess of marriage all on their own.
Regarding the other argument that marriage is foremost an institution for procreation, why do they not support a fertility requirement to get a marriage license or force the annulment of childless couples as marriage frauds?
David,
Thanks for your comment. I completely agree with you. There’s is an appropriate rebuttel for every argument against same-sex marriage.
My goal with writing this was to attack it with a more personal approach. Try and almost put a face to “those gay people” who want to marry.
Thanks again for your comment and support.
Hi Kim,
I emailed you about having a constructive conversation. Mostly, I just have some thoughts about same sex marriage rattling around in my head, but I can’t really test them out because I don’t have a gay friend to tell me where I’m dead wrong about things. When I saw a copy of this post on another blog, I thought that you would be a person that I could run my perspective past and learn a little about another perspective.
I’ll give a little introduction so you won’t have to guess about my “come-from”. First, thing you should know is that I’m one of those Mormons that you are upset with. I actually don’t live in California, but I did grow up and go to high school there. My dad and step mother still live there and were both active in the prop 8 campaign. So while I was on the side lines, I do represent a personal face to the opposition that you struggle with. I’m willing to try to answer questions about how we can possibly think what we think as best I can. Please keep in mind that I am not just a Mormon, I am a religious person who actually believes my faith (we have all kinds).
I also want you to understand that I am not homophobic, or hate oriented, toward gays. I hope to prove this to you in the course of our conversation. I understand that there are good and bad in every grouping of people, including Mormons, including gays. I do not think that homosexuals are ‘just a bunch of perverts, who only care about having sex and living promiscuous lifestyles.’ Unfortunately, I am woefully inexperienced. I personally know a grand total of two people who are openly gay; my sister-in-law, and a co-worker. Both of them fit into the ‘normal people who happen to be gay’ category.
I just wanted to introduce myself to get started. Hopefully I’ll find time tomorrow to write some more and test some of my opinions on you. Don’t be shy to point out hypocrisy or contradictions in my thinking (just do it nicely). Also, please watch out for phrases that I use that are offensive and correct those so I can communicate better in the future. That is why I’ve come here. I have watched other people enough to recognize that I certainly must be blind to my own thinking errors just like everyone else is. I’ll try to sit down and form thoughts into words tomorrow.
I’ll start off with the Keith Olberman video clip you posted today.
Keith asks,
“What is it to you?”
“Why is it important to deny marriage and love to others?”
“What if someone told you that you couldn’t be married any more?”
He talks about religion, God, and the Golden Rule.
The answer based in religion, is simple and I’m sure that you’re already familiar with it. I believe that God has declared sexual relations with the same sex to be immoral and a sin. With this as the basis, the answer to Keith Olberman’s questions becomes the same answers to why our society rejects adultery, polygamy, and sexual relations with minors. I am still sexually attracted to other women even though I have promised to be monogamous with my wife. I have a deep rooted urge to look at pornography too, but I don’t do it because I believe that these things are sexual sins and religiously immoral. As believers we try not to do them, even if we want to. We work to make them illegal so they do not become widespread. God says they are harmful to us and our society and we believe Him.
Keith Olberman’s entire argument could be applied to all the teachers that have been having sexual relations with their students. Why do you want to stop their love? The same argument could be made, word for word, about a heterosexual man who has fallen in love with a woman at work and wants to cheat on his wife. They love each other. The world is full of hate. What’s it to you?
Keith talks about religion and God in an interesting way. There are religions which teach that deity is warm fuzziness, but that isn’t what my religion teaches. My understanding of God isn’t that I can break His law as long as I’m nice while I do it. Even if I get permission from my wife to have sex with another woman, it is still a sin. If your mindset is that consenting adults rule the universe then this last statement makes no sense to you. But you have to remember that many of us don’t believe that consenting adults are the ultimate authority. We believe that there is a higher power and when He says no, He means it. We believe that He is the parent and we are the children. My kids can get together and decide among themselves that they all want to eat candy for dinner every night. They can all agree with each other and choose to believe that it is good for them. But it really doesn’t matter what they decide. It matters what is true. And I as their dad, I teach them that even though they want some things, they can’t have them.
In real life we don’t know what the absolute truth is. Some of us believe the parent has said one thing. Some of us believe the parent doesn’t care. Some of us don’t believe the parent exists. We struggle because no one can prove the real truth – but, those of us who do believe in the Judeo-Christian God, believe that we must do all we can to do what He recommends.
I chose to focus on the religious arguments because I think you already know what we’re thinking in that regard. If you have comments or questions about the religious argument or specifically about Mormons I’d like to hear them. Once the religious reasons are out of the way I’ll try to explain why I’m against gay marriage in non-religious terms.
Jared,
First of all, I appreciate the respect that you have shown and I promise that I will do the same. I’m not going to jump down your throat if you say something that could be considered politically-incorrect. I really want you to be honest with your thoughts and I will do the same.
It’s difficult for me to argue with the religious reasons for being against same-sex marriage. I guess I should first ask why you specifically think that God is against it? Are there specific Bible verses that you base your beliefs on? Teachings from your religious leaders? I have to be honest that I’m not very familiar with the Mormon faith. I grew up in a Christian home and I know there are huge fundamental differences.
But like I was saying, it’s difficult for me to argue against religious beliefs, because to do so, I would have to question the structure of an individual’s faith in general. Personally, when I was finally open with myself about being gay, I went through a long period of struggling with what I had been taught about homosexuality and what I felt in my heart. As a result, I’ve done a lot of research on the subject, most specifically the Bible verses that are used by religious leaders to anchor their anti same-sex marriage stance. I can go into details if you’d like, but ultimately, after looking into things, I now have a hard time with the validity of the Bible.
That’s me, however, and I understand that it would be difficult to ask you and others who devote their lives to their religion to question a large component of their faith.
The only way I feel I can respond while still respecting your religious stance, and ultimately it’s the reason that I feel Prop 8 is wrong, is the freedom of religion component to the First Amendment that is supposed to be present in the United States. Our country was formed because of people attempting to escape religious prosectution, and yet even today the words of the Constitution are not respected.
Again, I could explain to you in detail why I have problems with the Bible and why I don’t believe it says anything about homosexuality being a sin, but I may never change your mind. It’s the argument of freedom that I feel holds the most merit. You should be able to believe how you like, Jared, but I should be able to have those same rights.
There were a couple things I wanted to touch on that you mentioned in your comment:
*you said that Olbermann’s argument about always allowing people to love could also be applied to arguing that teacher/student relationships should be okay. This is not a fair comparison, as pedophilia is completely different than me being attracted and buidling a relationship with anther grown adult. Homosexuality is not perverse. It’s not about sex, but about finding that spiritual and loving connection with someone. All I can say is that the way I feel about my wife is the same way that you feel about yours. I have the same monogomous commitment that you do.
*You then went on to compare homosexuality to other actions that you consider a sin (pornography, adultery, and polygomy) and you say you and the Mormon faith believe it’s important to make these things illegal so that they don’t become widespread. Once again, it’s difficult for me to have the love I have for my wife compared to those actions listed above.
*It appears you think that homosexuality is just a want, similiar to lusting for others and your kids wanting candy. I ask the following with all due respect and you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to, but isn’t there something between you and your wife that is beyond just making sure that you’re with someone of the opposite sex? Isn’t there a passion/connection, a way that she makes you feel? I don’t just want my wife like I want to always eat my favorite food, but the attraction I have for women is part of my core being. I was born this way. I remember having female crushes when I was very young, and I have never had any attraction to the male gender.
Thank you again for your thoughts. I would like to hear more specifically why you believe God is against same-sex marriage.
I know what you mean about the religious aspects of this debate. It is one of the reasons that I brought that up right away. I thought that it would be the easiest area to establish an agreement to disagree. I kind of wanted to get the idea – that people who identify as conservative Christians will believe that homosexuality is morally wrong – out in the open and then off to the side so we can continue our conversation on more common ground. Of course my religion will continue to be a major source of my world view and opinions, but I don’t think that I need to continually come back to that as the basis for all my arguments. While I do have faith in the teachings of my church, I also have a brain and I expect the teachings to make sense in the real world. I don’t believe that God gives commandments to make life hard for some of us. There are good reasons for His restrictions, and I think the good reasons can be understood and talked about both from a religious and secular viewpoint. It is my goal to explain my opinions in a way that makes sense to people, not just religious people. I think this is where you will test my thinking the most. If I always cover weak secular arguments with a fallback to religious immorality, then I may as well go talk about this with people at church instead of with you.
That said, I think your questions about a religious basis for opposing homosexuality to be honest and thought provoking. I’ll answer them as best I can. A little something you should know is that Mormons are not like evangelicals in some important ways. It isn’t good to talk about other religions to a third party, but I’ll do my best to be fair. One of the important differences is our belief in the Bible. The evangelicals I’ve met believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God. Or in other words, God put every word exactly in its place for a divine reason. I find that to be something of a flaw in their religious thinking. As Mormon’s we see the Bible (and other scripture) differently. Be believe that it was written by men. They were good men who had a link to God. They were wise and inspired (except for the one who were obviously dumb as a rock). Anyway, God gave some of them direct quotes and even visions, but they were, after all is said and done, men. They had opinions, culture, and perceptions of the world around them just like we do and when they wrote in their journals, they made mistakes. I believe the important thing about the Bible and the Book of Mormon (our other scripture) is that we learn God’s nature and plan for us and make the determination to do it His way. As a Mormon, I believe that God hasn’t stopped talking to prophets and we still have some today. What new scripture have they given us lately? Here is something very relevant to our discussion. The Family: A Proclamation the world. Please give it a read. It was written in 1995, which is pretty recent as far as scripture goes. For Mormons, this is as good as any verse in the Bible.
Darn it. I’ve already run out of time for tonight. I’ll write more tomorrow. Thanks for the discussion so far. It’s exactly what I’m hoping for. It will take a while to hit all the valid points you made in your post, and I’m willing to drill down on any subtopic you find interesting. It is probably good that I’m out of time, I don’t like posts with 27 paragraphs in them anyway.
Jared,
Thanks for your feedback. I apologize that I’ve been MIA for the last couple of days. That work stuff has gotten in the way
.
I was interested in and appreciate hearing the differences between Mormon’s and Evangelicals. The difference in outlooks of the authors of the Bible scripture was really interesting.
I read the Family Proclamation. Thanks for linking me to that. It’s pretty direct in what it says. Though I’ve never thought about it before, it only makes sense to me that you would believe that God would have prophets today as well. My first reaction is that of speculaton, but I can completely respect that you believe in today’s prophet’s words.
I have to get some sleep tonight, but I wanted to leave you with a question. If you could imagine not having your religious beliefs, in your heart do you think that two people of the same sex loving each other is wrong? Or are your thoughts based solely on what you believe God says and thus feel you need to act and think in respect to his thoughts?
Thanks and have a good night.
Kim