Hell yes…
2008 November 11
Maybe Keith Olbermann should be our leader. He seems to get it better than anybody else…
12 Responses
Post a comment
Maybe Keith Olbermann should be our leader. He seems to get it better than anybody else…
same track mind kimmy.. same track mind…
I posted the same video and didn’t even know you did too!
What do you say to someone whose heart goes out to you, who’s trying to understand your perspective, but whose religious convictions hold that homosexuality is immoral, and that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God? What about those who see this as standing up for morality rather than trying to strip away “rights”? I’m trying hard to see this from the “other” perspective. I’m trying to have an open mind on this, but I’m curious how those questions would be addressed from the “other” side.
Sincere Question,
Thanks for your comment. I appreciate that you’re willing to try and look at the other side. I wish everyone on both sides of this issue would do the same.
First, I understand where you’re coming from. I grew up in a very Christian home and was taught the very same things you believe. When I was finally open with myself, I struggled with my religious beliefs and who I know I am.
I feel it would be inappropriate for me to ask you to question your beliefs and I don’t want to do that. During that struggling period, I did a lot of research on the Bible and it’s messages on homosexuality.
Combining with what I learned while studying and what I feel in my heart, I know that God is okay with me loving my wife. I cannot see how God could be against love. I know you may have preconceived thoughts on gay individuals, but we are just like straight people, trying to find that one who we spiritually and emotionally connect with.
Can I ask you why you believe homosexuality is immoral, and that marriage is ordained by God to be between only a man and a woman (specific scriptures, what religious leaders say)? I don’t want to be disrespectful to you or your religion, so please excuse me if I ever come off sounding that way. I would just like to continue our conversation and your feelings sound to be based solely on your religious beliefs.
Thanks again for your comments.
Thank you for your respectful response. I admit that even though I truly desire to have a charitable and constructive dialogue as I try to reconcile conflicting thoughts/feelings, I’m afraid that what I say will offend someone on either side. So thank you for allowing me to ask a sincere question, as I’m try to be open minded and figure out where I need to adjust my convictions and where I must hold firm.
I don’t doubt that you truly love your wife or that God loves you. My experience with gay friends would affirm this too. I try hard to be a good person and yet I feel that it would not be difficult to be attracted to people of the same gender.
The issue then that many good Christians probably have a hard time reconciling is this: “God is okay with me loving my wife” and that God despises sin and that homosexual activity is sin, although we are to “despise the sin, but love the sinner.” So can you respond to this? From your perspective, should or could people who believe this way feel fine with allowing “gay marriage”.
No comment?
Sincere Question,
Thanks again for your comments and I’m glad we can continue this conversation. There are a couple of things I feel need to be mentioned in relation to your comment.
First, I can’t ask you to change your beliefs. If you truly believe that homosexuality is wrong, though I don’t agree with you, you feel that way and that is fine. I can only ask that you educate yourself as much as possible and don’t follow things blindly, even when it comes to your religious beliefs. I can address specific problems I have with the validity of Bible verses, but that won’t do any good unless you’re open to hearing them and taking the chance that what you’ve been told throughout your religious lifetime is false.
That’s a lot to ask and I understand that. The second area I feel I need to touch on, if the first is not a possibility, is that as a U.S. citizen, a country where freedom is supposed to be the base for everything that we do (military efforts, government programs, etc…), I feel you need to respect that there are going to be different beliefs than yours. And as a result, because of the freedom that in fact protects you and your freedom of religion and beliefs that homosexuality is wrong, should protect me and others who disagree with you.
I think it’s important to point out that efforts to curb gay marriage are not going to curb homosexuality. I can honestly tell you with all my being that I was born this way and that God made me this way. I refuse to live a life that’s not true.
So to finally answer your question, yes, I believe that Christians who may believe homosexuality is wrong, though I would ask them to question where those beliefs come from and to make sure they do research before making decisions that affect other people’s lives, should respect the foundation of this country and allow the freedom that’s owed to all who are citizens here.
Once again, thanks for your thoughts. My question to you, and please don’t be afraid to offend because I have tough skin
, is to what do you base these beliefs on homosexuality on? Can you honestly say that you have done the research and still believe that it’s wrong? Or perhaps is there a chance that you have followed blindly? I will not judge you either way. I just want to get you thinking and continue this conversation.
Thanks again.
Kim
Hi Kim. I have done, and still am doing, a lot of thinking about your questions. My faith is much of my identity, and gives my life purpose and meaning. Part of the knowledge that my faith teaches is that God’s plan for his children revolves around families, family units that will continue in the hereafter. So much of my joy comes from my wife and my children, and knowing that we’re living God’s plan for us.
Here’s a link to the doctrine that I hold dear concerning families, just so you can know where I’m coming from:
The Family: A Proclamation to the World
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html
And here is a link to my Church’s position on same gender attraction: http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/public-issues/same-gender-attraction
I think you’ll find more tolerance in my Church on this topic than in many other Christian churches.
I naturally test things, question things, so to make sure I know for myself whether things are good and true, or whether I”m following blindly. When I read that document, it resonates in my Spirit. I feel it to be true.
So same-gender attraction, although a temptation, wouldn’t lead to the natural lasting joy (which is more than happiness) that I seek for eternally. For me, it would be a dead end. Although I personally know several gay couples who are such good people, and I have tried to always go out of my way to make them feel respected and comfortable, even though I don’t personally approve of their lifestyle.
Let’s continue the conversation, but for now I wanted to allow you to read those links to see where I’m coming from.
But even though these might be my religious beliefs, I recognize that I have no right to force these beliefs on you. That’s what is great about America. And that’s why this Proposition 8 is so controversial, even within Mormon circles. However, my church doesn’t see it as a political issue, but a moral issue. It doesn’t speak out on issues of politics, but on issues of morality.
Having said that, if gay-marriage is considered a fundamental right (as opponents to proposition 8 claim), then you have the right to qualify. If the word “marriage” should be redefined, it wouldn’t change my beliefs. But I would be concerned that something I do not believe is “normal” would then be condoned as normal. (Although I’m completely for civil unions and equal rights–I just have reservations about preserving marriage as that which I believe it is supposed to be.)
Is the conversation over?
Sincere,
Sorry for the delay, just been really busy.
Thanks for your response and the information you provided. Let me dive right into it…
You said that you’re willing to question and not follow things blindly, which I respect and admire. I try to do the same.
With that in mind, when I read over the information on your religion’s position on homosexual relationships you provided in your links, the first thing that pops into my mind is that believing this solely based on what’s written there is following blindly. What’s that information based on besides an individual or a group’s limited opinion? What is it more than, “I think it’s wrong just because I personally think it’s not as good.”
You admit that people can be tempted with same-gender attraction, but that homosexual relationships wouldn’t lead to natural lasting joy. I have to argue with that, as I only find that lasting and true love and joy from individual’s who are of the same sex as me. On the contrary, if I “fought the temptation” and got into a heterosexual relationship, I would be lacking that natural joy and wouldn’t be able to provide the true love to my partner. I only find that spiritual connection with those of the same-sex. Wouldn’t I be going against my natural love?
In regards to you being for civil unions and equal rights for homosexuals but being against marriage, is it just the word being used in my and other homosexual relationships that bother you? That our relationship would be put on par with yours?
I just read over what I wrote and I hope that it doesn’t come off too abrasive. I apologize if it does, I am just trying to get a little deeper into things. Please be willing to be honest in your responses.
Thanks.
Your not abrasive at all. Fair points, and again, I’m not here to argue or debate, but to seek better understanding. Please forgive me if I, in turn, sound abrasive.
It’s my understanding that the opinions provided on the links are widely based on doctrine–doctrine that is widely believed and which seldom changes–not on other peoples “opinion”. True doctrine, understood, changes attitudes and behavior and brings them in line with divine and eternal joy. I admit that the “natural” man, including the propensity toward homosexuality, is viewed as something that needs to be overcome in order to be changed into new creatures in Christ in order to follow God’s plan for our eternal destinies.
There is a scripture in the Book of Mormon (Mosiah 3:19) which states that “the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.”
In contrast to doctrine, church policies can and do change. But again, my understanding is that Church teachings regarding homosexual behavior is linked to doctrine concerning morality and how God intended for his children to share in divine and procreative powers (regardless of whether or not such sexual expression results in children being being born).
“The Church’s teachings and position on this moral issue are unequivocal. Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and the formation of families is central to the Creator’s plan for His children. Children are entitled to be born within this bond of marriage.”
Now let me explore some thoughts out loud–things I haven’t come full circle on closing my mind to. Speaking religiously, and despite “natural man” inclinations, I cannot reconcile homosexuality as acceptable behavior in God’s plan for his children. Of course that does not negate my Christian obligation to treat all people with love and respect. Nor does it negate my obligation as an American to promote freedom and equality.
But does the love and respect I have for individuals who identify themselves based on their sexual orientation mean that I should condone your lifestyle or merely tolerate it? This was a concern with Proposition 8.
I believe in tolerance, but I do not feel right about being forced to accept a new definition of marriage in the name of civil rights, when clearly equal rights are already held.
So yes, I suppose this does come down to what a “marriage” is or should be, or perhaps what it should not be. Freedom to pursue a gay lifestyle and live with dignity and civil liberties shouldn’t be confused with an moral right to marriage, when clearly there are many heterosexual individuals who also have not qualified for marriage and yet can’t complain that they’re being denied a fundamental “right.”
The word “marriage” in each of the three dictionaries I own prominently define marriage as a “union between a man and a woman”. So the struggle for “gay marriage” does appear to be a radical departure from universally accepted definitions of marriage. Again, I’m all for equal civil rights, but I do not believe gays have a right to redefine marriage and alter the fundamental unity of society–the family.
Has your patience worn too thin for this kind of dialogue?
Dear Anonymous (aka not willing to put their name),
No, my patience hasn’t worn thin. There’s just this thing called life that’s going on right now.
I don’t want to half-ass a response, so I will respond when I have an opportunity to really put my thoughts down.
Hopefully this weekend…
Thanks.